Gordon gets it.

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 09/12/2018 at 14:31 • Filed to: None

2

23

[Murray] stresses it’s meant “for real-world conditions”. That means not too much power? He nods. We talk about the McLaren 720S, which I’ve just been driving, or the Ducati Panigale motorbike he had been considering but rejected – things that are too fast for the road. “You can never even use maximum revs on those 200 horsepower bikes. You’d be dead or in prison.” he sighs. “ I just want to get back to real driving. ” Today’s cars are “ losing the plot on involvement. ” says Murray.

Super excited for the T.43... Any speculation on what it’s going to cost?

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 14:45

3

well.. more than i can afford for sure.... you might be able to afford it

djmt1 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 14:45

5

Seeing people fiddle with themselves over this as if this is some second coming of th e MX5 on the FP was hilarious. For starters the world isn’t exactly lacking pure, lightweight driver’s cars built in Britain. Plus unlike the MX5 this is thing is gonna cost a load of money and be very limited like all the other British weekend heroes. Either way just buy a Caterham.

Mercedes Streeter > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 14:47

3

Any speculation on what it’s going to cost? 

Probably more than most of us can afford, and that’s assuming he has the funding to make them a reality . IIRC, the T.25 still isn’t out yet and it’s been about a decade.

Decay buys too many beaters > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 14:47

2

This is why I ride a supermoto most of the time, bravo. 

Mercedes Streeter > Decay buys too many beaters 09/12/2018 at 14:53

1

A Grom isn't a supermoto :p

Decay buys too many beaters > Mercedes Streeter 09/12/2018 at 14:55

1

It’s close! But  I was talking about my real supermoto :p

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 09/12/2018 at 14:57

0

Hmm...

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 14:58

2

It’s going to cost an absolute fortune, rest assured. None of the manufacturing processes involved are even sustainable at scale costs.

Add to that, the design is using a horrifyingly expensive Honda drivetrain - it’s likely a tuned K24V 7 (201 HP, so a little boost, and the ILX has a 6 speed manual.) Means minqty of 10 at around $ 30k+ per package plus associated licensing and supporting equipment costs.

Ironically, it’s easy to rule out all the other 4 pot turbos because they make more power . Minimum GM will sell you in an LTG is lighter than the K24V7 package, makes 252HP/295ft/lbs, but manual requires longitudinal mounting. (Well, it doesn’t strictly, but you’d have to convince someone to restart F40 production. So not happening. ) Ford’s right out. And the LTG does not tolerate being detuned. Not if you want to smog it.

This thing is easily a six figure toy. If he was really convinced cars were losing the plot, he’d actually design something that could be manufactured at scale or even at a reasonable margin with similar stats.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Mercedes Streeter 09/12/2018 at 14:59

0

He just needs to get people to put up $1000 deposits, sight unseen. I bet he’d get a huge response.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > djmt1 09/12/2018 at 15:06

0

Yeah, if we could still get an Elise in the States  this wouldn’t be as big of a story. I have a Superlight R500 (sitting on my desk here at work).

But it is Gordon Murray... I have high hopes.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/12/2018 at 15:09

0

Six figures?! Ugh. I really hope not.

Mercedes Streeter > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 15:09

1

I bet so. He’s an automotive celebrity and would have people lined up to buy his creations.

HammerheadFistpunch > Mercedes Streeter 09/12/2018 at 15:11

3

As I said on that post - there is coming with a good idea, and there is selling it. Frankly Murray has more about the former and not the later. I hope he can get this manufacturing technique to someone who can produce it because I don’t have high hopes for this or any of his projects to find commercial success. Not being pessimistic ...but its damn hard to start a car company and keep it going these days.

Mercedes Streeter > HammerheadFistpunch 09/12/2018 at 15:19

0

Exactly. He seems like the kind of guy who walks into Shark Tank with some crazy brilliant ideas, but he doesn’t seem too good at getting them into the hands of the public. His creations are reaching vaporware status and that’s pretty sad.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 15:44

2

I guaran-damn-tee you. “Less aluminum” does not necessarily mean cheaper. “Simple crash structure ” means “harder or impossible to repair.” All those fancy extrusions? Horrifyingly expensive .

I did fail basic literacy testing though... he mentioned explicitly a 1.5L 3 cyl turbo. Which makes it worse not better. That means it’s actually the Ford 1.5 EcoBoost or the BMW B38K15T0 .

Ford turns out 197HP and 213ft/lbs stock, which is tuned to the absolute limit. I had a Ford engineer straight up tell me the 1.5 has even less headroom than the 2.3, meaning, zero. So this thing is a ticking time bomb of engine or transmission failure at 220HP. And those dressed motors require a serious order commit - hundreds of units minimum - since they aren’t a Ford Performance part. Especially if you’re doing emissions cert.

The BMW B38K15T0 is 228BHP (as found in the i8) which also means horrifyingly expensive . More than $3 0,000 for just the engine expensive since you’re talking about a custom ECU for the application , assuming you can afford the commit and licensing costs. Plus tooling for a custom transmission, and you just rocketed past the six figures mark. It would be pure fucking insanity to use this engine.

Given his association with TVR, my money’s on the Ford. But it really doesn’t help. Extruded aluminum and recycled carbon fiber?! Entirely dependent on a highly specialized alloy?!

Are. You. Shitting. Me. You may as well be building the thing out of dollar bills.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/12/2018 at 15:49

0

Hahaha! If your reaction to all this wasn’t so funny, I’d be crying...

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 15:54

1

Seriously, I’m looking at this thing and going “so, uh, why exactly would I choose this over the cheaper  997 GT3?”

(This is your cue to look at 997 GT3 prices.)

(And this is your cue to cry.)

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 15:56

2

It is great to agree with the father of the McLaren F1 on approachability and real-world usability of cars.

I would love to see what Gordon Murray could come with, in terms of a PHEV in the style and performance of BMW i8, but in the materials and price point of a Volt/Bolt, in the mid-$ 30s-to-$ 40K range... otherwise known as the median new car transaction price range... take your pick of mainstream manufacturers who could offer the power unit, modest to moderate 10-20KWh battery pack, and PHEV drive and regenerative charging   unit.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/12/2018 at 16:15

2

BMW’s B38 3-cylinder family is not necessarily that expensive.

2015-current BMW F20/F21 118i

2015-current BMW F22/F23 218i coupe / convertible

2014-current BMW F45/F46 218i Active Tourer / Gran Tourer

2015-current BMW F30/F31 318i

2015-current BMW F48 X1 sDrive18i [11]

2014-current F55/F56 Mini Cooper

2015-current F54 Mini Clubman

2017-current F60 Mini Countryman

2017-current F39 X2 sDrive18i

(wikipedia B38A engine entry) - those are not expensive cars, and they have the engine, gearbox, final drive, and everything else that makes up a car.

Yes, i8's power unit is different, and is highly turbocharged, with an E-drive unit, rather than a transmission, and it also has a front-axle e-drive supplemental electric traction motor and regenerative charging unit. (akin to Chevy Bolt’s front axle)

but arguably, it i8's rear drive unit is less complex than the drive unit in a Voltec2 Volt or Malibu Hybrid, with more planetary gear sets, more clutches, and two traction motors/generators... and the GM products, in standard GM bodies (Cruze/Malibu platforms) are sold retail under 40K, as whole cars.

I would argue that BMW i8's much bigger expense is the carbon fiber monocoque chassis and doors, CF body panels , general material build quality, more intricate structural aluminum sub-frames and other weight optimizations , and probably a healthy markup and profitability for a vehicle that is intended to be low-production volume.

For a vehicle built with a higher volume economy of scale, with an appropriate amount of platform and corporate parts-bin sharing, on a steel space frame with aluminum and composite parts where it makes sense... I think a performance-oriented PHEV like i8, but built to mass-market materials and volume specifications, I think it could be affordable.

Just because MR2, Fiero, Porsche Cayman GT4, and McLaren 720S are all mid-engined coupes, doesn’t mean that cost and expense can be extrapolated across that range of vehicles, even accounting for past and current time value of money.

If I thought GM would do it... a PHEV Fiero, as an affordable mainstream alternative to i8, and a mid-engined performance alternative to Volt/Bolt, should be possible. I just don’t think they’ll do it, for many of the same reasons that they subverted and ultimately cancelled the Fiero the first time, to keep Chevy happy with their Camaro and Corvette not having an in-house competitor to show them up.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/12/2018 at 16:28

0

Oh, I’ve already cried over 997 GT3 prices.

Any projection on how low first gen GT4 prices might  fall after the new one drops?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Mercedes Streeter 09/12/2018 at 16:30

0

SAD!

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 16:48

1

If Can Am can do it:

2018 Spyder RT Limited:

1330cc I3, semi-automatic gearbox, belt drive, 1012lbs dry weight, 115hp /96tq .

$29, 299 - full-boat loaded touring, top-end model.

2018 Spyder F3-S

1330cc I3, manual or semi-automatic gearbox, belt-drive, 900lbs dry weight. 115hp /96tq.

$21,299, mid-optioned, non-S down to 17,999, Touring & Limited models heavier and more expensive.

2019 Ryker:

600cc parallel twin (47hp /35tq ) or 900cc triple (77hp /56tq ) , CVT, Shaft Drive, 627lbs dry weight, $8999-$ 10,9 99.

Just released entry-level model... twist and go, no shifting. (wish it leaned, tho), Rally Edition adds ride height, scrambler-style tires, mild off-road suspension and standard rear rack, 900cc standard for $ 10,999.

Cut price in half, cut weight by a third, cut complexity but not build quality = new potential customers who couldn’t afford the bigger, more expensive models.

The Ryker is shaft-drive, and has center-lock wheels, which are usually considered premium features , because the analysis found that fewer parts count and decreased complexity of fewer parts SAVED more cost and weight on those specialized   parts, compared to more pieces and heavier weight of the alternative belt drive and traditional swing-arm rear wheel with alignment and tension adjusters, and 3-bolt automotive-style front hubs.

Sometimes conventional wisdom does need to be checked to see if maybe something considered “more expensive” on one or two criteria,  really ends up being less expensive in a systematic view.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/12/2018 at 22:01

1

unless he teams up with someone with spare produciton capacity. cough lotus cough, I can’t see it happening, let alone be cheap. The 4c is the cheapest carbon fiber unit and that is with FCA being able to “borrow” employees from maserati.